Have you ever considered how the scars of our emotional battles could manifest in our physical health? Join us as acupuncturist, Janene Borandi and somatic therapist, Jennie Pool, unravel the profound connections between mind and body wellness. They shed light on how the body not only records but reacts to our emotional history, revealing that addressing physical symptoms often requires confronting our emotional baggage for true, holistic healing.
Navigating life's emotional undercurrents isn't just about self-care—it's an art form that extends into our relationships, including how we raise our children. Jennie dives deep into the importance of developing emotional resilience and intelligence, offering insightful strategies for processing emotional pain. We also tackle the delicate, yet crucial task of repair work in relationships, emphasizing the transformative power of a heartfelt apology and the need for emotional regulation and accountability.
Wrapping up our conversation, we dissect the intricate dynamics of communication, from the role of cues and timing to the effects of attachment styles on our interactions. Janene and Jennie illuminate the fine line between assertiveness and aggression, and clarify the true meanings of terms like narcissism and gaslighting, which are often misused. This episode is a treasure trove of wisdom for anyone looking to enhance their psychological health and fortify their connections with those around them.
Connect with Janene on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/theacupuncturist_org/
Connect with Jennie on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jennie_pool/
Have you ever considered how the scars of our emotional battles could manifest in our physical health? Join us as acupuncturist, Janene Borandi and somatic therapist, Jennie Pool, unravel the profound connections between mind and body wellness. They shed light on how the body not only records but reacts to our emotional history, revealing that addressing physical symptoms often requires confronting our emotional baggage for true, holistic healing.
Navigating life's emotional undercurrents isn't just about self-care—it's an art form that extends into our relationships, including how we raise our children. Jennie dives deep into the importance of developing emotional resilience and intelligence, offering insightful strategies for processing emotional pain. We also tackle the delicate, yet crucial task of repair work in relationships, emphasizing the transformative power of a heartfelt apology and the need for emotional regulation and accountability.
Wrapping up our conversation, we dissect the intricate dynamics of communication, from the role of cues and timing to the effects of attachment styles on our interactions. Janene and Jennie illuminate the fine line between assertiveness and aggression, and clarify the true meanings of terms like narcissism and gaslighting, which are often misused. This episode is a treasure trove of wisdom for anyone looking to enhance their psychological health and fortify their connections with those around them.
Connect with Janene on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/theacupuncturist_org/
Connect with Jennie on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jennie_pool/
Hello and welcome to the Unscripted Podcast. I'm Janine Barandi, licensed doctor of acupuncture and founder of the Acupuncturist, and I'm Jenny Poole, licensed therapist and founder of MEND Counseling. Center, jenny is passionate about somatic and psychedelic-assisted psychotherapy and.
Jennie Pool:Janene, as an acupuncturist, brings a wealth of knowledge from ancient and conventional medical disciplines.
Janene Borandi:I think I have the best job in the world. I love being an acupuncturist. I get the benefit of having hands down the best clientele on the planet and really my practice wouldn't be as rewarding as it is if it weren't for my stellar colleague here in mental health, not to mention the countless other physicians and specialists we refer to in the St George, utah area and Janine.
Jennie Pool:The world can be quite challenging Handling stress and supporting nervous system regulation are crucial aspects of maintaining good health. One of the reasons I'm so passionate about my work is the opportunity to assist people on their healing journey with somatic therapy. While deeply appreciating the collaborative efforts that I get to do with you, Awesome, yeah, so welcome.
Janene Borandi:Achieving health requires a comprehensive, multifaceted approach, and that's why we created unscripted. Thanks for tuning in. We're going to explore the latest trends in the connection between mental health and physical health and, ultimately, medicine that works what you were saying about the cardiovascular system right.
Jennie Pool:So, um like, all of our systems are meant to work in harmony with each other and you can't have one without the other. It would be, medically, we would die right, if your cardiovascular system wanted to take a break, then your respiratory.
Jennie Pool:You know what I'm saying. So they're in sync. What people don't realize is our emotional body is very similar. It's meant to flow with our physical body, our mental body, our spiritual body. And people discount that because medically you can see something concrete like that Heart's pumping, lungs are breathing, the stomach's digesting right, all the things are working and they work automatically. Can't see the emotional body working. You can feel it. So when people are stuffing and repressing and it's not just stuffing but it reminds me of just like muting, and you're going to pay a price for that. And if you do it enough over time, especially with sometimes harder and intense emotions, your body's going to go. Hey, we're not listening to that part. We're going to start now.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Jennie Pool:Creating a way for you to listen to this part.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so when you work with somebody it becomes pretty easy for you to see it Like you see it. Yeah, do I do it?
Jennie Pool:Yes, do I? When we were working on some different of the more sensitive spots, do I? Uh-huh, when we were working on some different of the more sensitive spots, you could see an immediate shift in, and then there's also a choice, right?
Speaker 3:When you say that sorry to interrupt, but when you say the sensitive spots, do you mean physiologically, Because you've done body work on me and you've also like, obviously we've done brain spotting and other kinds of therapy, for sure, I know, like when I get emotional I know I stop, yeah, um, but when you do you mean physiologically?
Jennie Pool:uh-huh.
Speaker 3:I'll shift when you're working on my body, my physical body yeah, the body will.
Jennie Pool:The body keeps score right. The body is, is aware of anything that's ever happened to it. So there are sensitivities in the body for where you've had trauma right or where you've had something happen. So sometimes, even before the emotional body um shifts um, you can see a physiological response. So there's certain areas in your body that that when I've worked on I can tell like, oh we just we shifted into some different territory here. This is is more sensitive, this is more vulnerable, and now you're not just working on the structural issue, you're now working on an emotional issue where the structure has been impacted.
Jennie Pool:It's like when someone's taking a blow. I can tell on someone's body when they've taken a blow, versus if they're just tweak their shoulder because they slept weird.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Jennie Pool:Because the body is going to respond differently to a trauma that happened. Or I just didn't sleep well, right, because that didn't feel like trauma, but the body's like, oh, I have a kink.
Speaker 3:Right. Versus oh, I'm guarded and I don't know if we're okay, somebody cut me open, yeah, and took out my liver, right, right. Did I ever tell you that I well, I see a medical Qigong practitioner. I think that's so fascinating. And she did. She did this um meditation on me or some kind of like. She did this Qigong on me where she? This is such a sensitive spot right here in my solar plexus.
Jennie Pool:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Like just touching it right now, I can kind of feel like, oh my god, I want to cry and it feels sour and they're like there's still something in there, yeah. And she said, okay, we're gonna work on this area today. And I was like, are you kidding me? And she was like it's gonna be okay.
Jennie Pool:I put my shoulder and my neck needs some work, so I feel like we should go there. Yeah, exactly, yeah, and she was like Like this is the one I came in for, so we could just shift and the body. But then there's a part that's like no, that's what needs work.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's so interesting, I can't even like touch it and it feels so sour. But she put her like palm of her hand in my solar plexus and she said I'm going to ask you to inhale, exhale very powerfully and as you exhale, I'm going to push on this with a lot of force. And I was just like, well, then I'm going to die, yeah. Basically I was like I'm going to get ready to cry.
Jennie Pool:I'm going to scream, I'm going to cry, and then I might die again.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I cried a lot, but it wasn't too bad.
Jennie Pool:Yeah.
Speaker 3:It was not as bad as I thought it was going to be. It's like just placing my fingers on there kind of feels like a sucker punch.
Jennie Pool:Yeah, but you notice sometimes that's one of the things I've noticed too is A sucker punch, yeah, but, but you notice, sometimes that's one of the things I've noticed too is we can sometimes like scoop out some or scoop it all out, but sometimes we have to do it multiple times, like I worked on a gal today, and watching her teenage daughter struggle with stuff has brought up her own struggles as a teenager at those times. How much rejection she had to feel and she's like my daughter's, not even doing anything. She rejection she had to feel and she's like my daughter's not even doing anything. She's just living her life and she's faring fairly well, but it's reminding me, and so just being around her daughter sometimes is creating anxiety, and so what we're unwinding and processing was her 13 year old yeah and then this today was her 16 year old and that's emotional debris, that's that's churning in the body, and it's sometimes dormant until it's not.
Jennie Pool:Yeah, just like sometimes other things can kind of hang out dormantly in our body and then something activates it. Right, yeah, for sure. And I think that sometimes people one don't need to remember all of that and constantly be aware of it or our nervous systems will be even more fried than they are. And then sometimes, when we're ready, it's time, yeah, and the body is like and it's time to get rid of this, this. Now we have the bandwidth to unpack it, so let's do it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's interesting, interesting, you know. I've been building this course and in one of the lectures I talk about, you know, diagnosis, and one of the most interesting questions you can ask somebody is like is there a season in which this feeling comes back? Okay, well then, let's get to the root of what's going on and what's ailing you physically, physically yeah because this kind of it happens every spring or it happens every fall.
Speaker 3:Well, what happened in the fall? Yeah, go back to your memories and, um, they can, I would say, nine times out of ten easily they'll find something and they're like, oh my gosh, that's right. That's when this really emotionally tumultuous thing happened.
Jennie Pool:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And probably one of my most recent examples is like a girl who couldn't like she can't get her period, like every spring, it's like, well, what happened in the spring? Oh, that's right, that's when you know my parents had this horrible fallout.
Jennie Pool:Yeah.
Speaker 3:When I was 14 and you know, I didn't see them for a few days and it's like, okay, well, maybe there's some real emotional trauma around that that is actually impeding your ability to flow and therefore get pregnant.
Jennie Pool:Right. Look at the connection there. Well and sense of safety. It doesn't have to be any big traumas, it can be just when our sense of safety or our sense of equilibrium got disrupted. We start to encapsulate experiences and what sometimes people don't maybe give enough value to. It's easy to devalue emotional debris or emotional experiences, because if you got cut, you're going to oftentimes have a scar and so you can kind of remember that it was very visceral, very raw experience, like I felt that I saw the stitches, the stitches healed and it's very concrete, it's all there, right there, and it's great you can grasp that in reality, emotional debris is so much more subjective. It's harder to see.
Jennie Pool:There's no scars, oftentimes that we can see, we can feel them.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Jennie Pool:And so one of the things that I think people have got to be more willing especially in the mental health field, right, and also as a body worker and somatic doing so much somatic unwinding is your emotional body. You're going to pay a price if you're not tending to it, and so it feels easier to sometimes dismiss. But just you know if you, if you ignore a cut and it gets infected, you're going to have some problems, right? If you ignore an emotional cut, it's going to get infected, yeah, and you're gonna have some problems yeah, for sure it's funny.
Speaker 3:A friend of mine used the analogy of having to go to the bathroom, having to have a bowel movement. I think most of us understand what it feels like to not be able to like oh, I'm not at a toilet and I can't go right away. So, I've got to hold it and what that feels like to your physical colon and your body. It's miserable. And emotions are the same way Like if you hold them in they become misery and toxic to your whole system.
Jennie Pool:Yep, they can. In the end they can create its own hemorrhaging right. They bubble up, it's like it's like its own kind of boil or its own kind of festering.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Jennie Pool:Especially the ones that are connected to things that impact our lives in really hard or negative ways. Yeah, you know, and it's just like anything if you'd want to get it up and out. Yeah, but it's interesting how many people are emotionally pain avoidant. You can have some of the most pain tolerant people for physical pain, but sometimes the most emotionally avoidant like emotional pain avoidant. Yeah, like you put me through emotional pain.
Jennie Pool:that's a hard no Put me through all the physical pain ever, and so then you have to ask yourself if you can tolerate that much physical pain. Grow some tolerance to deal with the emotional pain yeah but sometimes again, I think it's easier to minimize it like that. Later it's not that big of a deal right because I don't need 12 stitches right now.
Speaker 3:Well, suck it up, stuff it down, don't cry right now.
Jennie Pool:Don't be a baby, don't be weak, All of those things.
Speaker 3:Let me go see where the kitty is, Because you know you want to see something emotional that little baby getting out or getting away.
Jennie Pool:Yeah, you're like ah Right, did he go on that side? Yeah, did he go on that side? No, I think he went back over here.
Speaker 3:Hey.
Janene Borandi:Get back over here.
Speaker 3:Look at that baby. Come on, you are so handsome. You are so handsome. What did you discover? Huh, what did you find? Did you find something for your mama? Come over here and hang out with us, come on, come on, I don't have to pick you up. Come and see your mom.
Jennie Pool:Here's my little baby. That's okay, you to check on the babies? Oh yeah, come on, dude, I'm going to give your mom a heart attack.
Speaker 3:Get over here, yeah please.
Jennie Pool:But I think it's interesting because even with the acupuncture that you do and that when you talk about elemental, I think that the body is always trying to do that in our mental body and our spiritual body. And people are like, what is our spiritual body? Because these days spiritual can mean it's so subjective and it really doesn't have to mean religion.
Jennie Pool:Our spirit body is something that I think houses whatever we call our soul yeah so I think that's always, you know, connected to deep inside of us, and so, if all those bodies are supposed to be flowing together, when one's at dis-ease or disrupted, the body will really work hard on trying to create equilibrium. Which is why I think dis-ease in the physical body, when we've emotionally suppressed ourself, is like we're gonna raise all the alarm bells we can to get you to look at this. Yeah, people are like how do you know what's wrong with me? The doctors can't find anything wrong. Maybe it's emotional.
Jennie Pool:I'm like how long have you been dealing with this? Six years, three years, like 10 years? I'm all. Yeah, that means that there's been a conditioned emotional suppression response. Now, does the collective world give you those messages? Absolutely, don't be a baby, don't cry. Does the collective world give you those messages? Absolutely, don't be a baby, don't cry. I don't have time for that right now, especially even as parents. I have a three-year-old and a six-year-old and sometimes I'm like I don't, I've had a long day like stop it.
Jennie Pool:You know, I'm like maybe don't stop it, but sorry I wasn't there for you. Maybe don't throw this kind of we do. Do we need to get sucked into those messages of like?
Janene Borandi:well, we're not going to honor the emotional.
Jennie Pool:Yeah, so, so, but even even if you honor it, there's still this, it's it's. It is interesting to me that emotional pain can be some of the most intense pain that people have to feel. Yeah, but if we attune, it's attunement what I'm learning so much about, how important attunement is. If we can attune to the pain, we can move through it rather than get stuck in it or suppress it, only to have to deal with it later in a more toxified version.
Speaker 3:Yeah, right, yes, an exponentially toxified version.
Jennie Pool:So for example, with my partner who's going through possible loss with his parents. I see him physically stuffing those emotions and in the subsequent weeks my joints hurt, my stomach hurts, I can't eat. Well, I can eat this stuff all the time. My stomach hurts all the time I'm taking antacid. This is a guy who never takes antacids, right Right. And all of a sudden and he's like, well, I know I'm stressed out and I'm worried He'll acknowledge some of that, but really processing through what could be deep personal loss, yeah, loss, yeah, like I'm going to avoid that as long as I can. Well, right, don't avoid it too long, because you're just going to again.
Speaker 3:You're going to. Well, the other thing that's happening is it's bringing up so much other stuff.
Jennie Pool:Yes, Old stuff. Old stuff when I was eight, when I was seven, when I was 16, when I was 25, when I, no matter how hard I worked, it was. That's still not enough, Right.
Speaker 3:Right, and so the interesting thing is like going back to the example of your kids coming home and saying, stop, that I've had a long day. Just I can't, can't deal with it right now kind of thing. Um, there's I. I can see. I can see the argument on both sides that we can do more for each other if we learn how to attune to our children and say, okay, what's the problem?
Speaker 3:Most of us have never had that done for us, and so where and how do we learn to start to do that with our children so that we can say, okay, let's move through this intelligently. Yes, let's get to the root of it and learn together how to come to a solution and negotiate a solution, because I can't just treat you like a baby and cave in and not be able to assert my role as a parent, which is to say, hey, I'm in charge, here's the solution.
Jennie Pool:And now we're moving on, because otherwise we're going to create a culture of you can't enable emotional fragility, Because what you're trying to teach is emotional intelligence, and that's sometimes a fine line and it's hard. What's the dance there? Whether you're doing that with a partner? Whether you're doing to teach is emotional intelligence. So it's and that's sometimes a fine line and it's hard Like what's the dance there, whether you're doing that with a partner, whether you're doing that with a friend, whether you're doing that with a kid is not enabling emotional fragility, because you do want to.
Jennie Pool:You want to teach emotional resilience and you want to teach emotional intelligence. So I want to honor the emotion, but we move through and then we also learn how to have better emotional regulation, regulated responses, so that we're not having sometimes unhinged response, so that we don't have to just tolerate unhinged response. Well, that's just us hearing your emotion. There's a, there's always a line, right, there's always a spectrum of what's too much, what's what's too excessive, what's too little, yeah, and then what's? Where's the happy medium in that intervention? And cause, cause. I've seen plenty of kids that sometimes are indulged too much. I have to say that carefully. And then and then anylement and demandingness and like and they're not ever really managing their emotions. Well, you want. So there has to sometimes be some firmness, like, hey, whoa, like, even with my little guy today in the car, I was like whoa, I was like we don't ask for things that way and I get that you want something right now. So let's stop, whoa, calm down, I'm going to give you what you want yeah.
Jennie Pool:I need you to ask me differently. And as soon as he knew that I was going to give him what I, what he wanted, he wanted like to be able to have an electronic turn, just like his brother, you know that he wasn't going to go without and that's okay to have some boundaries on staying without too right but that it was almost like, oh, I'm going to get the thing, but I just need to ask differently. So then I was coaching him on a three, by the way. Hey, ask differently and you're going to get more of what you want, versus if you keep trying to ask this way. Yeah, and that is shaped at one, at two, at three. You can shape that so early and you'll start better at 20, 30, 40, 50.
Janene Borandi:I work with a lot of older adults.
Jennie Pool:They're like how come I didn't learn these emotional regulations? Because in fact, I teach a class about anger management, domestic violence and also it's all about relationship skills and emotional regulation. And I have these adults being like why isn't a class like this taught in high? School why isn't a class like this taught in middle school? Yeah emotional intelligence 101. Yeah, yeah, hint to all the schools, I know teach this class, gosh.
Speaker 3:you know, in addition to that, I think it would be phenomenal to teach a gender studies class. You know we had I don't know about you, but when I was in undergrad I took women's studies and all of the men felt like it was an opportunity to go to class and meet chicks, but then they quickly found out that it was just a women's haters group. So they never, like they, dropped the class, but I always like in that, in that class I wanted I. What emerged for me was man. I have brothers, yeah, I have a father. I have people. I have men in my life that I love, and I don't think that this is a fair assessment.
Jennie Pool:Yeah.
Speaker 3:This is very one-sided, and so why aren't we doing gender studies instead of women's studies? Because, um yeah, there are so many factors that have affected us emotionally on both sides of the camp. And now you've got people identifying as so many different genders.
Jennie Pool:Yeah, gender is starting to be a lot more broad term. But, to your point, I'm raising four boys and and in the groups that I run. For example, one of them is a female group but two of them are male.
Jennie Pool:And and some of the struggles are are similar, but you have some struggles where, um, sometimes it's just not safe for men to to be emotional, to feel yeah, and it was a lot safer for the women, and then sometimes it wasn't right, but I'm, but I oftentimes feel or kind of sense more often, or experience more often that men just haven't had an opportunity to really be validated in their emotions. You know, yeah, I'll share, I share an example. You know, when you're teaching emotional intelligence and you're teaching about how to manage reactivity and you're teaching about what it means to also model appropriate behavior and also model repair work, right, my son he's 15 now.
Jennie Pool:When he was five, we were driving up north and I don't know why I wasn't in a hurry, it's not like I had to be there at a certain time. It takes four hours, about three and a half hours, to get to where I was going and but I just it's driving with kids it gets stressful, you know. You feel like they had bird bladders. It's like they want to stop all the time. You just want to get to where you're going, right and so I was just like two hours in.
Jennie Pool:It's like when are we gonna stop? I need a snack, this, that, and I finally got, and I and they usually go after I'd had quite a long day, so I'm tired, we're going to. We're going to get there kind of later again, not in a rush, but it was more just like I feel like my bandwidths were low, they'd already been kind of close to being blown and that's why managing thresholds of bandwidths is important. But at one point he just was like I gotta go to the bathroom, I gotta go bathroom and I pulled over and I remember pulling over to this wrong place and then I was going on this other free, like this other freeway, and I got mad and I was like just and I snapped at him enough that he was in tears and it was too much, it was too loud, it was too much, and I could see him getting upset and I so I pulled over the car and I was like I'm gonna let you go to the bathroom and acknowledge your needs, like your physical needs. And I remember, as I opened, it was a van. At the time. When I opened the van, I said he goes, don't you ever. And he pointed his finger at me.
Jennie Pool:This little five-year-old Kenny was gonna say don't you ever yell at me again. He's like don't you ever. And because I was like bud, that was I that was really loud and I'm sorry because I went to open the door for him he goes don't you ever. And I said, bud, I'm gonna stop there. I said I wish that I could tell you right now that I'll never yell at you again. I wish that I could tell you in my heart of hearts that I'll make sure that I never have a dysregulated response with you ever again. I said but I will. I said, unfortunately, I probably will. I said but what I will promise you is that you better bet that I will be accountable. I said you better bet that I will model what appropriate behavior is and I will wrap back around and I'll make that right. If I've been inappropriate, I will own it. I said so that's what I promised you. I'll do.
Jennie Pool:I said 10 times out of 10. And so if I'm, if I rip into our relationship, I will repair it. And he just caved, he cried, he let me hug him and he's five. Yeah, even as you can, as we're talking, you can feel the emotion, right? Is that some of the best things that we can do for our people is repair work and helping them learn how to do good repair work, because that's how I think you heal and manage the emotional body is that we do the repair work with ourselves. We do the repair work with other people. Yeah, the repair work with other people is that we learn to move through emotional debris, emotional difficulty that creates emotional debris within ourselves and with other people, and people can work most of the time, all day long, with a commitment to repair. Yeah, you know what I'm saying.
Jennie Pool:Yeah, totally and so then you can teach people like, hey, we can get to these places, we can get to these hard times, we can land in a really great place. And I'll tell you what. At five, my son still remembers that conversation and to this day, when we have difficult times, when I say, hey, you know that if I get after you, I'm going to make it better, he goes. I do know that, mom, he goes. I do know that 100% of the time you will repair this with me. And I think that whether it's a 15 year old, whether it's your partner and you guys are in your 30s or your 50s, if it's a best friend, if it's a co-worker that you've had a rift with, I think that those kind of principles apply yeah is, and people what's?
Jennie Pool:what's kind of alarming is that more and more people are less willing to spend time in those accountable spaces. I don't know if it's a discomfort of accountability, but like, or if it's, if it's the embarrassment of having to be accountable or the vulnerability that accountability brings, it's like it's very avoidant and so sometimes like, let's just not say anything about that rather than lean into these difficult conversations and saying yeah, I was wrong, or hey, that wasn't okay, or I was too loud there.
Jennie Pool:Um, hey, I'm really sorry, that wasn't okay. Yeah, and then sometimes waiting for that apology to repair enough that you can then have another conversation, because sometimes people want to be like I'm sorry. So now can we talk about something else or can we like talk about why I did that, like some people like. No, I just want to soak in your apologies, you know yeah, totally.
Speaker 3:um, I find myself in that space avoidance and I and I can tell you why um, I have this group of people in my life that are big and beautiful and have shown me like, hey, it's okay to be sensitive and sweet and safe and kind, and you know you're safe here.
Jennie Pool:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And then I have another group of people in my life that are they don't understand the language yeah, you know what I mean. And so I've had the benefit of going through in my master's program I think I told you about this this basically therapy that we did for three years, sophia, and it it changed my life, it changed my, my cynicism, it changed my um, unwillingness to admit I was wrong, you know, and I got to do some really major introspection during that whole time. And I remember one day I just was reflecting on a relationship and I, a relationship that ended and I was like, oh my God, I did that, like I did that. I understand my contribution to that.
Speaker 3:Yes, and I think up until that point I wouldn't have said that or done that yeah, it was more of a them problem, not a you that you were maybe even part of the problem exactly, and when I had that aha moment, I was like, oh my gosh, let me go back now and really tease this out and figure out. And I think part of the beauty of it was it was it was okay, I was given permission to be exactly the way I was. Yeah, and you know how do you redesign this to make it a bigger, brighter world? How do you redesign you?
Speaker 3:Make it a world that's big enough to live in, for us all to live in and it was like oh man, I you know, two years ago I would have laughed in your face if you said something like that, because that was some really weak stuff, like that was the stuff that sissies are made out of yeah and you're gonna get beat up on the playground if you use that language too long. You know, right, like that was just weak.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and here I was with this group of people that were like we know your heart's broken because you lost your horse when you were little yeah and when it was used in that context it was like uh, oh, I think they see I'm gonna shut it down, yeah, but I but I couldn't and I didn't. And I'm glad I didn't because it was, it was really powerful in it. They are the things that helped me learn how to create the relationships that I have now as an adult, and I still slip up. I go back into my old practiced Janine right where I learned really well as a child how to tear someone down yeah so I guess I had a friend tell me recently he's like I love listening to you square off about someone.
Speaker 3:Yeah, he's like, cuz you, you can tear someone down really easily. And I'm like, oh God, no, I don't want to be that?
Jennie Pool:I don't know if that's a compliment, is that? Are you trying to say something nice to me? Like man, you think I'm good at that? You should see my sister. Well, and there's something to be said about cause. Again, it's there's a spectrum and being able to advocate for yourself and when there's an injustice and or disrespect and or a rift or a hurt, to be able to stick up for yourself. But oftentimes people do that in a more dysregulated way rather than a thoughtful and appropriate and like very emotionally intelligent way.
Jennie Pool:And that's because emotional intelligence, up until more recently, hasn't been as valued as raw IQ and also physical strength. And you're going to just show up in the world and perform and do well.
Speaker 3:And know your facts and be right, and even if you're not, guard it.
Jennie Pool:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Guard your opinions.
Jennie Pool:Because vulnerability is weak. Stand by it, yeah.
Speaker 3:If you're louder and more offensive, more insulting, then you're going to win. That's advocacy yeah and argument.
Jennie Pool:And there can be this is what's and this is what I think is being lost in the world too kind of diverging like we do. But, man, there can be some healthy arguments and some healthy debates and some healthy disagreements. Like, you don't always have to be in this place of alignment with each other. I tell people, especially when I work with couples, all the time, like, hey, no matter how many times you talk about certain things, you may never land in a place of like. Okay, now we just really agree. Like we will probably always disagree about some of this stuff, but we can still honor the space of our relationship and remember that we are connected and chose this, not adversaries.
Jennie Pool:Like, as soon as people start getting adversarial with each other, they start to erode their bond, and so so do I have to have alignment with this. Is this something that I have to have you agree with, or am I just married to you, agreeing because it will make me feel better and then learning how to honor? Like well, we may never agree about this, but but because I love you and because I care about you, I can still show respect to you, even in our disagreement. And the problem is, sometimes people will look at a disagreement and then they just get villainous, they get adversarial, they get, they get combative, they get reactive, yeah.
Speaker 3:I think that's where I go avoidant, because I don't have the, I don't have the time, space, the bandwidth. I got my, I got too many other plates spinning to like, oh man, could I, could I maybe teach you some Sophia right now, like I could? But there'd probably be some resistance and I'm not sure I have the time and and and it's hard, it's hard on my sensitive heart too. And so you look at it and say, unfortunately there's so much avoidance. But I I do think that people who learned, um, that bullying and I huh, I have to be careful to use that word, but it does it feels like bullying sometimes If, if you're not with us, you're against us, and's like, oh okay, well then I'm, I've learned now to just be quiet yeah and it's okay like I don't have to be with you or against you, but I'm also taking note of the fact that I probably can't have a really thoughtful conversation with you, because I'm probably going to be wrong the minute I say anything that doesn't align with your agenda.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so I'm not going to throw myself into an unhealthy argument. Yeah, I'm all about a healthy debate. That's not avoidant, though.
Jennie Pool:But that's not avoidant, that's saying I'm realizing that there can be no efficacy in this conversation and so I'm going to choose silence. I'm going to choose, you know, to be quiet because I can tell that the value of my words aren't really going to land here. I want to go there with you and also safety.
Jennie Pool:avoidance isn't always, I think, a bad thing. I think sometimes it's also born from this doesn't feel safe, and I probably should have this conversation, but I don't know how to cause, I don't know how to keep it safe, and so I'm just going to kind of not do it.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Jennie Pool:And that feels more like eggshell-y or kind of like worried yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's been. It's been interesting to find those people because, um, we talk about, like, the different kinds of attachment styles um, there's secure, avoidant, and uh, what's the other one?
Jennie Pool:um, oh my gosh, all four. Yeah, I can see the boxes right now. I know we're gonna look it up um anyway avoidant attached I think it's like, yeah, there's like it's the two, and then it's kind of a combination of the two um, hi, baby, you're that cute kitty.
Speaker 3:Oh, you want me to touch your belly. Um, so I definitely let me think about where my point was going the attachment styles um, I know, I'm avoidant, for sure. Um, that has been my style and I'll, I I'll shut down and it's interesting. It's so interesting because I've been accused of like stonewalling and I'm like whoa, what is that?
Speaker 3:Yeah no, I don't think so. I think that I am collecting my thoughts because I otherwise have learned that it might not be safe to approach you and actually have this conversation with you. It's really interesting this whole conversation about gaslighting and narcissism, and that's for our next episode, Right? We'll dive into that next time.
Jennie Pool:It's our hour, too, jesus.
Speaker 3:So I definitely look at the avoidant attachment style. Anxious is the other one that's what it is, yeah yep, it's avoidant, anxious and um secure yeah and then insecure yeah and then, yeah, I uh, I look at it and I'm like, okay, that's me. And I have to coach myself like, okay, do the brave thing, this person's not gonna bite your head off yeah, they're not gonna.
Jennie Pool:You know like you're telling yourself do the brave thing it is brave, it does take courage.
Jennie Pool:These are really hard conversations to have, even with people I really care about and know really well. Sometimes I'm like, oh, how is this gonna go? Yeah, I don't know if I want to do this. And then sometimes, like conversations I know I need to have. Sometimes I'm like it's just easier to not say anything right now until I feel like I have to. But then sometimes things build in and they're bigger ruptures and you're like man, if I'd only done that sooner. That's, that's the tricky thing about the emotional plane. It's not linear. Sometimes it's not concrete. There's not this like well, if you do a, then b will happen and then c's right. There's so much subjectiveness to sit through. And then sometimes you don't do it well, like sometimes you're like I thought that was going to be a good idea.
Speaker 3:I thought that was well said.
Jennie Pool:And then you took that 7,000 times worse than I could have ever imagined.
Speaker 3:Yes, Timing is everything. Asking, asking the person to and this was something I learned in Sophia it was like is that person in a place where they can actually have this conversation with you? Yeah, and asking like, hey, and it was so cheesy the way we did it in school and I felt like, man, this is never going to fly If I go to my family member and say may I have your listening?
Janene Borandi:You know which is like what do you say with one another?
Speaker 3:Are you effing around with me? Yes, and they, they, they would be like are you smoking something? Yeah, like, okay, what's the latest trend, janine? What kind of hippie wagon have you hopped on today? Yeah, um. But it's true, and I do think that if we, if we approach our difficult, brave conversations in the sense of saying, like hey, you got a minute, I really need to talk to you, talk to you about something important, um, that person gets the opportunity to say you know what I can't actually. I mean, what's up Like, is everything okay? Yeah, but it's not just going to be a quick conversation, like, I really need to sit down and have this conversation with you. It's going to take some time, and if you don't have the bandwidth, that's okay, let's talk about it later.
Jennie Pool:But I'm queuing it then to have it at some point.
Speaker 3:Yes, you're not just saying, you're not just walking in the room and saying like bam. I'm going to lay this on you, you don't know what that person's dealing with in that moment.
Jennie Pool:I don't know if you're ready for this or not, but this is what's going to happen and they're going, yeah, and I do think that the word cue is important, because what I again, when I counsel couples, I'm like, well, you guys see where you're not really cuing each other well, and you're trying to have sometimes these like really difficult Like if this is on a scale of one to 10, you're doing some really difficult emotional gymnastics here and you're not really sometimes checking in with each other about pace and time.
Jennie Pool:And also, like you know, I want to have this conversation, can we have it? And if not, great, let's cue it for later. So sometimes they're really missing cues or missing the opportunity to cue, even like handing some space. You know, the reason that sometimes people feel more avoidant or they feel like they just got ghost or stonewalled oftentimes is because they didn't give that person a cue. You don't sit there and explain the whole reason why you can't talk right now, but you can say, hey, I need to give this a minute or I'm not ignoring you, but I've got to.
Jennie Pool:I want to be more thoughtful about my response, gotta, I want to be more thoughtful about my response, so I'll get back to this. And they're like well, when, when are you gonna get back to it? Like, sometimes you don't know, like I don't know, but I promise you I'll get back to it.
Janene Borandi:Like as soon as.
Jennie Pool:I know, but give me some time to gather my thoughts. The queuing piece is really huge because then it creates less distress around, like are we gonna have this conversation? Are just disengage without queuing? It really, it really just like um, confuses people and distresses them. It's like yeah you just went away. I'm not sure why you did, and so are you going to come back. When are you coming back? Um, are you ever going to come back, right? Yeah?
Jennie Pool:yeah, that really people sometimes can be very simple, like, hey, I want to have this conversation, just not right now. Yeah, so give me a few hours, give me a few days. I may not be able to have it until next week, yeah, but again, if you pause a conversation, okay, it's a timeout, not a walkout. Taking a timeout, not a walkout, right? Yeah, if you pause a conversation, then you've really taken the accountability to come back around.
Speaker 3:You shouldn't wait for someone. I'll be weird, but yeah, we had that conversation. Yeah. If you've ever had a parent leave, yeah. Or if you know if you're an adopted child or whatever the abandonment seed is really strong.
Jennie Pool:Yeah, what happened?
Speaker 3:yeah, like, oh my god, oh my god. Like, what did I do? And it is often a thing of what did I do wrong. How did I make that? What did I do? That was so bad that made that person leave without saying anything.
Jennie Pool:I don't know what's happening. Yeah, so disorienting. It is so disorienting If people are listening to this, it ties into this. Everyone should look this up because it's such a great example of what happens because we're beings wired for connection and we of what happens because we're beings wired for connection and we get distressed when we don't know what's happening with that connection. It doesn't matter if you're a baby, it doesn't matter if you're 16, it doesn't matter if you're 30 or 60, if we feel like, all of a sudden, we've lost connection to somebody that we're connected with. It's disorienting, it's distressing, yeah. So there's this.
Jennie Pool:It's called the six, it's called the still faced experiment. They had this mom come in with her baby and they made sure that this was ethical, so they didn't let the baby suffer, get distressed too long. But what's crazy about this experiment is that in less than a minute the baby gets distressed, right, because the mom's engaging, put the baby down in the seat. They're engaging, they're playing, and all of a sudden the researcher or the you know, the scientist people they're like, go still faced, you're there but you're not there. So there's no emotion, there's no engagement. I'm here but I'm not here. So they're playing, playing, playing. And then the mom goes straight faced and just sits there and looking at the baby. Okay, within seconds the baby asks for engagement. It goes nothing. So then it's a little bit more amplified, like like the baby's confused, starting to get. He's like mom engages with me, why isn't she doing that now? Yeah, still, okay, not distressed, but like ah, I'll just be louder right, so you start to see the volume increase.
Jennie Pool:Maybe more non-verbal language? Yeah, like more. Instead of one hand, it's two and then, as the seconds go, like no engagement.
Jennie Pool:Then you start to see the baby be like well, now I'm a little worried yeah why is this woman, that this attachment figure that regularly engages with me, yeah, not engaging with me? You start to see the distress grow, and what's amazing about this experiment is that it grows so magnificently quickly, right, and so within seconds it's like ha, no, no, no, and like reaching, and like engage, engage, and then within less than a minute, the baby starts getting really distressed, like upset, not crying yet, but just like ma, ma, ma, yeah and then, so that it doesn't get too distressed, they stop the experiment right to keep it ethical.
Jennie Pool:Yeah, and she, and she goes hi, baby, I'm here. And the baby immediately goes. Oh okay, I don't know what happened there, but here you are again.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Jennie Pool:But what's beautiful about this experiment is that, again, whether you're a baby or like, well, I was a baby. No, if you go, someone and a lot of people are getting used to a ghosting culture these days like I'm just gonna ghost you, I'm not gonna give you any. It's disorienting when couples totally stonewall and like I'm here but I'm not here. It's so confusing, it's so disorienting and it's so rough on relationships. Just create a cue I'm overwhelmed or I'm really mad. I, if I say anything right now, it's not going to be nice. I need you to give me some space, or I don't even know what to say right now, but I'm not so I'm not going to not talk, but I need to not do that right now.
Jennie Pool:It can mitigate so much distress in a partner, and sure, a partner or someone has to learn how to not then press anyways like respect the boundary Cause. Sometimes what happens is no, we're going to talk about this right now, and then there's no efficacy. It rubs and yeah, the person leaves anyways. And where are you going? What are you doing? It's like I want to talk to you because, because none of those boundaries were honored in the first place, right, right, but it just goes to show how deep attachment bonds and how easily they can get distressed when we just ghost people, when we're especially more that I can see you, but I can't access you. I don't know how to get access to you. Why are you closing me off? Yeah, and it would almost be better if they weren't there, because seeing you and not being able to access you is incredibly disorienting and distressing. Yeah, it doesn't matter if you're a baby or not.
Speaker 3:Oh my gosh, that's attachment bonds oh my gosh, and if you knew how many people are out there living in marriages like that and having children in that environment. Oh, I'm sure you do. Yeah, but it's, it's unbelievable.
Jennie Pool:The the our inability to communicate well with one another, yeah, and how that's translating to our children, yeah, and and here's one thing that I've noticed, even in the groups I run too, is well, that's just how I am like hey, let's not give ourselves that excuse anymore. Um, emotional intelligence skills things that grow your emotional intelligence are learnable. Yeah, you can learn these skills. You can learn how to better engage. You can learn how to communicate, even if you start small, like I'm just going to start acknowledging, like I'm overwhelmed or I don't know what to say right now. Give me some space. Yeah, it helps. I always tell people.
Jennie Pool:If you're going to sit there and yell at each other and you create zero efficacy in any conversation, all you're doing then is like discharging what is the pent up anger that needs to get discharged. I'm feeling all this anger, I'm going to discharge it. I don't care who I discharge it on. So you're getting lightning bolted. You're getting lightning bolted or I'm just going to blah, right, right, and then you have to look at like man, if that's how I discharge anger, I've got to look at how to grow my maturity level and my ability to manage really hard emotions better, because I don't need to throw a big adult tantrum.
Jennie Pool:I've got to learn how to manage that we always want to focus on how do I align with the most appropriate behavior possible, no matter how upset I am, because we all are capable of learning how to do that. So I'll have people be like, well, that's just kind of how I am. Like, don't give yourself that excuse. If you can learn a skill and these are all learnable skills these aren't things that someone can't learn. That's why I have to remind people like, don't give yourself an out that way, like you can learn these skills. These are things that you don't even have to go pay for therapy or you can watch like 10 YouTube videos they're all out there, yeah, and I think that that brings us full circle to entitlement.
Speaker 3:It's like somebody told you, somebody taught you that it was okay to be that way. Yeah, and sure, I mean, I guess it is, but that's not really going to get you anywhere in life. Well, it's going to be rough on your relationships.
Jennie Pool:So stop being surprised when your relationships are eroding Because some people are like, are like how come this is going to crap? It's like you're chipping away at the good grace and the bond in your relationship.
Speaker 3:So don't be surprised if, over time, your relationship wilt and then wilt, and then wilt some more so, and it's hard because those that's often like the, you know, the people that are like always complaining about other people and incapable of doing the introspection and saying, well, how am I contributing to this misunderstanding? It's so hard, it's so hard to do that.
Jennie Pool:The way that sentence you just said. If no one took anything else from what we said is that sentence how did I contribute to what just happened here? Yeah, it would make relationships a thousand times better across the board. Oftentimes it's easy to be like you, you, you you're the problem Versus. How am I contributing to the ease in this situation? How am I contributing to the conflict? How am I contributing and what can I do differently so that, even if what they're doing I don't have control of, I can at least manage what I'm doing? That may or may not be appropriate. It's not appropriate. I always want to.
Jennie Pool:I always want to commit to appropriate behavior, no matter how upset you are. A lot of people give themselves sometimes excuse why I was mad. So I'm sorry, but I was mad. It's like learn how to be mad appropriately.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's vulnerable yeah, definitely, and I'm sorry. Yeah, that's a huge one.
Jennie Pool:I had a boss repair work, though Repair work you can. You can rip that relationships. But if you have really good and I'm not saying well, so go rip at them, right.
Jennie Pool:But, if you don't, but if you do right, if you do. I always tell people learn really good repair work, because that's what will maintain your bonds is. And now there are some rifts that maybe just can't be repaired, but many can be and a lot of people just don't know how to do the repair work. An apology goes a long way. A genuine one, where you can tell someone genuinely is is apologizing.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, and not not like.
Jennie Pool:Well, I'm sorry, yeah sorry, all right, get over it already yeah, that is not an apology, okay you may have said the words, but there was no, the delivery, the timing, just that's.
Speaker 3:That doesn't count. I'm sorry, and I think I've been waiting years to actually say that out loud and having had enough of those types of apologies delivered to me yeah and having to be like okay, well, I guess he said the words and so I need to accept that. Yeah, no, that doesn't count yeah be authentic about it mean it?
Jennie Pool:yeah um apologies sometimes make us feel so embarrassed and humble.
Speaker 3:Oh, like we're wrong. Yeah, we did the worst thing, and then, we had to admit it.
Jennie Pool:So it's almost like I'm sorry, okay, let's get over this already. It's people want to kind of rush through apologies, yeah. And it's okay to sometimes sit in the mire and be like, yeah, that was crappy that I did.
Speaker 3:It's actually the right thing to do.
Jennie Pool:Yeah To that was crappy that I did it's actually the right thing to do, and I'll hold the space of however long it takes to feel this way until you feel like that I'm sorry. Now I'm not saying too, that sometimes people are putting the screws to people too long. Like, hey, I said I was sorry and it felt like you've done some really good due diligence for that. Yeah, and you're either going to move on or you're not. But I don't know what else I can do. But at the same time too, sometimes people want to rush through an apology and you've got to really hold the space for that person. Like, hey, I really I'm sorry, and whatever it takes and however long it takes to repair this with you, I'm in it right?
Speaker 3:yeah, totally like I. I don't know the the difference between oh, I'm sorry I stepped on your foot, are you okay? Versus I'm sorry I cheated on you. Are you over it yet?
Jennie Pool:Yeah, Just don't even go there, yeah.
Speaker 3:I had a boss when I worked at the government, and he used to. I learned so much from him. But we'd go into these meetings and he would say look, I'm really sorry. He had a bunch of project managers sitting around and everybody just airing their complaints and he would say you know what? I'm really sorry, that's my fault. I should have done this, this and this better. Like I want to say, 90% of those things were never his fault, but somebody got to hear an apology and it was what they needed to help them move on and become part of the team again and become more, more engaged. Yeah, they got heard. Yes, they got acknowledged and, man, it is a simple human kindness sometimes, even if you're not the one that, it's so true, made the offense. Say the huge, the human kindness, I'm sorry people want to be seen, heard and validated.
Jennie Pool:They want to be seen like like you see me, do you get me? That's one of the things about this. Stress like diffusing conflict or diffusing anger is in it. Sometimes it's so lost on people like you're activating anger rather than diffusing. If you really want to diffuse anger, you're going to have room for your opinion and your thoughts and and your own feedback and but, first and foremost, really hear somebody, really, hey, I can see you're really upset and I really want to understand that, and if it was something that I did, I want to understand that as well.
Jennie Pool:Right, people can have a sense to to be understood and heard. You can really diffuse stuff and help drop the rope on that resistance and that fight is to be able to say I hear you or help me, help me hear you. Like I can tell you're really upset and it it's. It's amazing how quickly you can diffuse a situation if someone just can feel heard, and and and and and and help manage the rupture. Be really curious, like I'm mad too, but I can tell that that I'm not understanding this. So help like, teach me about this. Yeah, it would. It would change how people manage conflict. Now we'd be like, oh my gosh that that sounds so easy but so harder to do. It is when you're when you're having an amplified emotion. It's hard to emotionally regulate.
Jennie Pool:That's why it's a skill, yeah, but if you practice it enough, like I tell people like, hey, I snapped at my 15 year old with all my skills. I still mess up, but again I I commit to really good repair work. Later I go. That was overreactive. I ought to have talked differently to you. I'm working on it.
Speaker 3:I'm gonna keep working on it. Jen, I love that, but I'm good, but I'm but like I want.
Jennie Pool:I want to like yeah, it's like that repair work, but then it's the doorway into connection. And, by the way, I can't get my 15 year old to own what he did if, first and foremost, I'm just battling with him right, I really want him to be accountable. I want to teach accountability.
Jennie Pool:I've got to model that first that's so beautiful same in relationships yeah sometimes, if I want the doorway for my partner to be accountable even if I know I'm right I've got to really be more curious and hear what's going on with him, also be willing to diffuse the energy of the situation rather than add to it yeah, there's just going to be no efficacy in communication yeah then why are we having it?
Speaker 3:yeah, just to be like angry and rip out each, rip out our relationship yeah and damage it yeah, I love that and I I applaud you on um teaching modeling. Like teach the person how to be with you. Yeah, like there's the boundary. Like, hey, new relationship, this is only going to happen so many times before I'm just out because I don't, and I'm going to tell you this is what you need to do to have an audience with me. Yes, that's well said.
Speaker 3:If you violate that too many times, then I love me and I care about me enough and so much that I am going to exit because there's a way about your communication style that completely disrupts my peace and I won't let myself get into the habit of disruption. I've worked my whole life to get out of that. So I've done my big work, I continue to do my big work and absolutely I still take two steps back some days. You know, yeah, and I look at it and I, you know I want to be unkind to myself and at the same time I'm like, no, but look how far you've come. Like, let's celebrate that.
Jennie Pool:Yes.
Speaker 3:And let's be kind to yourself, because the old practice, janine is just still in there waiting to badger out about somebody who's pissed her off. This time Right. Yeah, it's learning how to unlearn. Yes, your learning is a massive undertaking.
Jennie Pool:Huge and you can shape that with your partners especially your partners, by the way, and even like relationships.
Jennie Pool:But I always, always tell people, you teach people how to treat you and so you, you, if someone and some people will act inappropriate, regardless of of how you shape that. But I oftentimes in my couples counseling I'll be like look, how often were you reinforcing that, like hey, that's not okay. And then here's what. Here's my boundary about that versus you know, not saying anything about it, right? So we teach people how to treat us and if somebody really wants to be as healthy as they can be and learn to be healthier over time and engage in a relationship and really loving and caring, they'll learn over time how to respond healthier and healthier. So you teach people how I. You know, there was a young girl that I worked with and she was in a relationship and she kept being how do I, how do I make this healthier? I said will you stop enabling the inappropriate behavior? You're, you're part of enabling some of this inappropriate behavior, because you're so scared of losing him, that you're not challenging some of this behavior.
Jennie Pool:I said so. What you're teaching him is that he can keep treating you this way and and you're you know it's not okay the way he's treating you, but you're also because you're enabling it, you're a part of it right, as soon as she was able to start picking up for herself and being more vocal. Over time, the behavior from this other person improved, because the other behavior wasn't tolerated anymore.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Jennie Pool:But there is something to people being like. Well, I guess I'll tolerate some kind of chaotic or inappropriate behavior, because there's a lot of fear around loss. There's a lot of fear around loneliness. Yeah, and really so, because again we're beings wired for connection.
Jennie Pool:Yeah, and so it hurts when we don't have them and we feel lonely is corrosive to the soul being lonely, feeling lonely, and so people sometimes will stay in something that's maybe not as healthy or chaotic, just for the sake of at least to have something. Rather than nothing, I'd rather have maybe something less healthy. So then, helping people well, you know, challenge it to be healthier. What if I? What if I lose it? And so that's, that's tough, because I work with people that sometimes are like well, I'll choose unhealthy companionship over loneliness.
Speaker 3:I have. I have a thought on loneliness and I think it's a subject we should really dedicate that's another, that's another one.
Speaker 3:I know we've got such good content to expand on, but loneliness itself is the antidote to the loneliness, and here's why I think, having been alone like most of my adult life uh-huh um you, you get so much time to understand who you are and to fall in love with yourself, and not a conceited cocky way, but a kind, delicate, sacred way, yeah, in relationships that are probably going to be unhealthy to some degree, right, right. But I've been able myself to learn what I won't stand for, what I won't compromise Like. I am so peaceful now in my solidarity. I don't look at it as loneliness anymore.
Speaker 3:I look at it as I have. I have this really unbelievable space in my life. Do I get you know? Do I want to share it with somebody? Of course, yes. I've never felt better.
Jennie Pool:Yeah. And what's beautiful about what you're saying, janine, is that you're holding the space for companionship. You haven't, like, written it off Totally, and so you're saying, hey, I'll hold a high bar for qualitative companionship over quantitative companionship. Yeah, even if that means I have to wait for it.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Jennie Pool:And in the meantime I'm going to be okay with myself and grow myself, because I don't think that that's you know. That's what we're talking about is, you may have lonely moments, but you don't feel lonely, and that's different. And people are so scared of being alone that they'll sometimes lower their bar on having healthy, qualitative relationships for the sake of just having somebody, and then they're not really challenging each other to be healthier.
Speaker 3:Right and you want to know real loneliness. It's inside of a relationship where there is no true companionship and understanding.
Jennie Pool:Yep, that's actually well said. There's a lot of people that sometimes are like I didn't get married to feel so lonely, or I didn't get in this partnership that I've been in now for years to feel so lonely. Yeah, I think that's true. I think that's a real raw, deep kind of loneliness that is rough on the soul.
Speaker 3:Yep, it is at the root of a lot of disharmony in the mind body spirits that I get to work with all the time.
Jennie Pool:Yeah, Good chat. What a robust conversation. I love our conversations. I do think cuing a whole other conversation on even, just like you said, narcissism and gaslighting. Those are terms that need to be understood but sometimes are heavily overused this day and age.
Jennie Pool:I say that carefully because people are like it's real. Yes, it is, but, man, sometimes it's being used now to mute assertive communication, which I think is so sad. It's a beautiful thing to be assertive and to have true, genuine assertive communication. And just because someone's getting challenged with that assertive communication doesn't mean that someone now is a narcissist or they're gaslighting you. Gaslighting comes from such a it's not a, it's a, it's a negative intent.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Jennie Pool:You know. So if you have, if you have, if you have genuinely a negative intent for someone and you're trying to manipulate and shape them and overwhelm them and flood them and box them in, that's gaslighting. Sometimes I just think gaslighting is so easily like. Sometimes I want to be like no, you just got challenged and someone's being assertive and call that gaslighting.
Jennie Pool:So I think it would be great to do a whole conversation on that, to really, because when it's happening, it's not okay. So it's okay to validate that. Gaslighting isn't an okay thing yeah, it's a. It's a part of a way of abusive behavior. Right, and narcissism isn't okay either, but sometimes it feels like, well, everyone's a narcissist. Well, exactly, yeah.
Speaker 3:And it's so funny, so much so that you know you have all these opinions out there now about narcissism and I'm like, okay, so let me get the definitive list and I can see what percent narcissist I am, because supposedly everyone's a narcissist to some degree. Right? I'm like, okay, well, where are my challenges and how do I work on them? That's part of being introspective, but I want to create understanding and cohesiveness in a relationship I's part of like being introspective, but I want to create understanding and cohesiveness in a relationship.
Speaker 3:I don't want to be seen as that. Yeah, but supposedly every one of us has got some level of challenge and yeah, is it just that we're?
Jennie Pool:But do you call?
Speaker 3:No, I'm just going to stand up for what I need. Would we label that narcissism? Yeah?
Jennie Pool:Or would we label that narcissism, yeah, or would we? Or would we label that something different? Right? Would we label that Like is it so, then we? Should we really use the label of narcissism? If we, if we all, if you're asking about, is there some percentage of us that has something of us in us? I don't know if I would ever use the term narcissism. If you're a narcissist, you're a narcissist kind of through and through. If you're, no one has like 10 narcissism in them. Does that make sense? Like someone may be selfish, maybe sometimes we have selfish behavior, maybe sometimes we have selfish tendencies, tendencies but let's call it that that's not the same as narcissism.
Speaker 3:and or sometimes I was insensitive or I could have listened better right that's not the same as narcissism oh my gosh, can we dive into narcissism next time?
Jennie Pool:yes, this, let's dive into narcissism next time, because this has been a subject on my mind for a long time.
Jennie Pool:I had this one guy who was in tears. He was just like I had some rough times in this relationship and here was the conflict and my narcissist was told I was a narcissist. And I looked at him and I said narcissists, don't ask if they're narcissists Like, and you are having an incredible amount of empathy and sadness about the state of your relationship and where, where it was, where it was going, and you have too much empathy Like this. Who told you this? Like why? Why were you given this term? So I do think it's important in this day and age to say if you're going to use a term, use it well and then call everything else what it is Like. If you're being insensitive, if you're being selfish, if sometimes you're being short-sighted, say those words, but don't call everything narcissism or gaslighting.
Speaker 3:It is the buzzword and I think that you know, if we're going to learn so much about narcissism, then we ought to learn about all of the other psychological diagnoses that are there to choose from. And to take it one step further, peter Attia and Matthew Walker did this podcast on sleep like podcast on sleep, and I think that the result of one of the sleep studies out there came back and basically said if you go one night without eight hours of sleep or a, you know, a significant amount of sleep, if you're underslept, then you will start to show the signs of multiple different psychological diagnoses. I believe that, and so when we talk about taking care of ourselves and the facets that go into that sleep, hydration, movement and exercise, nutrition elimination all of these things contribute to your psychological health as well Absolutely, and that, by the way, is undervalued too.
Jennie Pool:I can't tell you how many times I see people who are battling with serious depression start having a healthier diet, start moving more, incorporate exercise, and it's not like that is the only thing that they needed to do to change their depression, but it helped magnificently.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Jennie Pool:Because, again, what you're starting to interface with is neurotransmitters and dopamine and serotonin, and getting sunshine and moving your body, and endorphins and nutrient density. You know nutrient density you start to change the chemical makeup of the body, so that could be its own hour. That we talk about is. But sleep deficit is a big one that I think is very much under talked about and we oftentimes are lucky for getting five to six hours of sleep a night, many people and also nervous system dysregulation, Because nervous, you know, these days it's like, well, I don't have trauma, but most people have some kind of nervous system dysregulation.
Speaker 3:Right and you stay in dysregulation for long enough, that becomes a trauma in and of itself. Yes, thank you very much.
Jennie Pool:Yes, so we can talk about nervous system dysregulation, but I think having some healthy sleep hygiene and a healthy sleep routine is incredibly undervalued. People just keep burning the candle at both ends and it matters. And being in a sleep deficit really taxes the body and doesn't let it heal and repair.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Jennie Pool:So, yes let's keep these going.
Speaker 3:Okay, I love it. Thanks for all the goods.
Jennie Pool:Yes, let's have many of these conversations.
Speaker 3:We'll see y'all next time.